God, Sex and Politics: A Conversation with Gary Cherone of Extreme

For many people, their first exposure to Extreme was somewhere around 1990, shortly after the release of Pornograffiti.  It was one of those chart topping multi-platinum mega albums that introduced most of America to a band that penned hit songs such as “More Than Words” and “Hole Hearted” while at the same time placing them in the category of one of the most misunderstood bands of 90’s. They were going to be labeled, for better or for worse based upon the merits of those two songs, but that would always be a shame to me.  Because for me, Pornograffiti was not just an introduction to Extreme and my love for their music, but it kick started my fascination with the band and that would eventually lead me to be so much more than just a causal music listener.  For me Pornograffiti was the start of music itself.  It was my one perfect album and caused me to go back and buy their first album and then all the subsequent ones as the years went on. I didn’t realize it then but it was the beginning of my love affair with a style of music that would follow me for the rest of my life.  It’s been nearly 20 years since the release of that album…and I can truly say that my life was never the same if for no other reason than because it was the first record that caused me to look deeper than the two chart topping songs and delve into the bigger story that was being told.  And for some reason that story resonated with me all the way to my core. It still does.

I recently got the chance to talk with Gary Cherone of Extreme about everything under the sun and talk we did.  Check it out:

Gary: I thought our interview was at 1:30, have you been waiting long?

C6M: A little while…I was beginning to wonder when someone finally picked up if it wasn’t going to be some guy from India thanking me for waiting.

Gary: (Laughs.)  No, I had the wrong time.  I thought you were later in the day.

C6M: I’m probably on the tail end on your list of interviews today…

Gary: Actually you’re my first so you’ll get my best.

C6M: Well awesome. I know we don’t have a lot of time.  So let me say that when I picked up Saudades (Saudades de Rock) one of things that I noticed about the new music that I loved about the old music is the fact that you never seem to shy away from what some would consider taboo topics.  You know how some people say never talk about Politics or Religion.

Gary: Yeah…

C6M: Yeah, but you sort of made a career out of it.  Is there ever a topic you say to yourself, “No, I can’t talk about that.”?

Gary: We definitely try to talk about everything.  And try to come from an honest place.  Maybe sometimes too honest…cause some of the songs, some of the relationship songs are too close to home.  And you got the people around you going, “Hey, did you write that about me?”

C6M: Where do you get your creative inspiration?  Musically?  Intellectually? Lyrically?

Gary: Well the music around, whether it’s old or new…Nuno probably listens to a little bit more new music than I do, but we’re exposed to that.  As far as lyrically…Extreme hasn’t put out a record in 13 years.  And we’ve grown.  We’ve grown old.  Yeah, so the world around you. You try to be observant.

C6M: Are you watching CNN or reading a book and then say…this is important.  This moves me.  Where’s my pen?

Gary: Yeah, for me, it’s always something maybe I read or I see.  I try to not hide where I fall as far as a position, but I try to see both sides.  And I try to ask questions within a song.  For me it’s more a challenge to be able to draw out something or to draw someone in that doesn’t see it my way.  I don’t know if there was a specific song you were talking about…

C6M: Well…it’s relevant because here are some of the topics you have covered: the absurdity of war “Rest in Peace,” injustice, prejudice “Color Me Blind,” the calamity of governments, death of influential people “Peacemaker Die”: You guys have always been both very American in your choice of themes and at the same time not afraid to voice (sometimes) the dissenting opinion.  Can you be a Patriot and still constructively talk about and maybe even be critical of the corruption or mishandling of things that we see with leadership and still love your country?

Gary: Yeah, I think you sum it up well.  Without a doubt.  I can say I’m proud to be…(laughs) I’m proud to be an American.  That sounds like a song title.  (Laughs) That’s what’s great about the country.  Free speech.  Look at the privilege that we have.  That just being a song writer or having the freedom to play music in a country that, even if you said something unpopular, you are not at the risk of getting your head cut off or being shot at point blank.  I think that sometimes a lot of people take that for granted.  The privilege of the speech or the dissent…without fear of the state reprisal.  To get to your point.  I think that America is an anomaly.  I think the 200 years of democracy, yes it has its warts and yes it was born the original sin of slavery…and I could go on forever talking about that.  But I think the idea of America is not the norm.  I think the natural progression of history is more totalitarian than free. Which is off the point, but you know…you got me going.

C6M: No that’s good.  Because it leads into my next question: What do you think about some of the changes in government today such as finally having an African American President?  Do you sort of feel like in some ways you guys played a part in at least opening the eyes of your fans to a larger world so that twenty years later we are less prejudice and a little more color blind?

Gary: Well, was it Bob Dylan that said that music doesn’t change anybody.  But I think it does.  I think it does influence people, through music alone or a John Lennon song. Words have power.  To put Extreme in context, we’re a band, we’re blip on the screen and our audience is small compared to the U2’s and Rolling Stones of the world.  But are music and lyrics influential within that context, absolutely.  Yeah, I think that some of the music I was growing up on influenced me as how I saw the world whether it was race relations or whatever.  I, for a long time, since I’m older, thought that America was ready for an African American president for a while.  I remember back in the day of Colin Powell…if Colin Powell ran…I don’t know if he would have won.  I’m sure people would have voted for him on that side of the ticket.  I don’t think it would have been that big of deal.  Maybe more than today.  Yeah, America has definitely reached a milestone when it comes to that.  (Giggles) On the other hand…there are things that are common on both sides of the isle when it comes to big government.  Obama and Bush are similar in lots of ways.  That’s another subject.

C6M: No I do agree.  I think that sometimes that the only thing that changes is the color of the tie.  If you’re honest about it…and you start to get away from the partisan politics in general you can kind of see that.  If you open your eyes to that and examine what they’ve done and what they’re doing.  Which I think a lot of people have a hard time separating.

Gary: Right, Right…

C6M: In the liner notes of the new album, you thank the Samaritan Soldier…

Gary: Yeah

C6M: Was that a specific person or group of people?

Gary: No.  One of the things…I think I stopped doing the liner note “thank yous” because I think I thanked my inner circle and family so many times over the years and you always leave someone out.  So you’re always pissing someone off.  So I think I stopped.  And I just felt at the end of the day I think of the Samaritan Soldier…regardless of why or why not we should be involved in foreign wars, 99.9 percent of the American soldiers are not raping and terrorizing.  I think in Afghanistan it’s the first opportunity for a little girl to go to school.  It’s one thing that we take for granted.  Freedom and democracy are not the norm.  We go back to the thing I just mentioned.  I think that’s what I address in “Flower Man.” Pacifism did not liberate Nazi death camps.  It was power.  It was force.  It was violence.  I don’t want to sound like a warmonger.  Because I’m not.  If you put it in it’s context.  Those things are not necessarily evil.  It’s the intent behind the force.  It’s the intent behind the evil.  I hope I didn’t lose you.  That’s why I just felt, here I am writing a song and playing music and living out my dreams and you think of the soldiers and not just the American soldier but soldiers that are fighting for basic freedom.

C6M: I think there is a distinction that can be made between the job of a soldier and ultimately what they can do that is ultimately still good regardless of the vocation so to speak. Let’s talk about the one song you probably get asked about all the time and the Legacy of More than Words.  Did you ever feel that you guys were unfairly judged for being a type of band that you weren’t?

Gary: Yeah, and that’s a long story.  There was a period of time in our career that we actually resented it.  And looking back on it, I can say we were immature about it.  Because it was the ticket that exposed the band and its music to millions of people.  And again looking in hindsight, you can’t control the media and radio and calling you a hair metal ballad band…and we’re not.  But you can’t control what people say.  And in the end the music and “More Than Words” is still vital 20 years later and the people that put us in the box aren’t around anymore.

C6M: So are you flattered that “More Than Words” keeps finding new life whether it’s because someone covers it or it shows up on television show as a parody of itself like on “How I met your mother?”

Gary: We embrace it and all aspects of it.  I get a kick out of it.  Mike Myers did it in the Guru; way back when Weird Al did a mock of the video…the song’s the song.  We actually embrace it.  We did it on this tour and we’ll do it whenever we play live.  It’s a trip to see, you know we weren’t around for 13 years, so to see kids that are 16, 17, 18 hand in hand with their boyfriend or girlfriend or whatever singing the song.  Now that’s a trip.  I mean we expect it from the older audience.  We’ve seen it a million times.  But to see new kids say that it’s their favorite song, their wedding song, their prom song…we get it.

C6M: I guess we’re far enough out now that I have to ask (and I’m half kidding) but has anyone ever thanked you for the song and proceeded to tell you what they named their kid?

Gary: Oh yeah…that’s been happening for years.  And I’ve been asked to do many a wedding.  I haven’t.  I think I sang it at my brother’s wedding and that’s just about it.  But we embrace it.  And on this tour we embraced all of the music.

C6M: Pat Robertson was quoted during the earthquakes in Haiti basically saying that the Haitians were cursed and, I’m paraphrasing, but essentially said they made a deal with the devil and are now suffering calamity because of it. Does a statement like this create a visceral response in you?

Gary: I sigh. What does that do?

C6M: On the one hand this guy represents a belief system shared by you (to some extent).  Do you ever feel like “I have to rebut that?”

Gary: No because giving it that much attention…yeah he does affect a lot of people if he puts his foot in his mouth.  Yes I’m sure he’s done a lot of good things.  I really don’t know that much about him.  But it makes me think of…I’m probably paraphrasing…I can’t remember the exact verse…but an Old Testament proverb about it raining on the good and the bad.  And I’m not saying that Haiti is bad, far from it.  But when you start assigning hurricanes and tidal waves with the wrath of God.  I don’t think it’s our place to read the mind of God.  And personally, I would stay far from even thinking that.  I think he stuck his foot in his mouth.  And it doesn’t do good for the people of Haiti that are hurting.

C6M: How about on a more local level.  What are your feelings about people that share your or my opinion about there being a God, but they stand outside of churches and hold hate signs.

Gary: Are you mentioning that whole thing with the father burying is son who was a soldier…and there was that crazy lady…

C6M: Yes, that or even the people that hold the signs that say “God Hates Fags” for example

Gary: Again, if you look the privilege we have in this country of free speech, but where is the decorum gone?  Where has the decency gone?  There is a time and place…everyone has the right to say stupid things.  But there’s no place for that.  Now, should the government step in?  That’s where it gets harry with the whole free speech thing, but at the end of the day it’s about being decent.  I think there are only two types of people.  Decent and indecent people.  There’s no races.  You’re either a decent person or you’re not.  And I don’t want to get into if a person has the right to scream outside of someone’s  funeral and scream vileness.  I think there’s a limit.  I hope there is some distance and giving someone a time to mourn.  I have to tell you I’m enjoying this and I can do this for two hours.

C6M: (Laughing) Yeah this can get dangerous.  The thing I always found interesting is that you take a very human perspective in your approach to talking about God and your faith in your songs.  Whereas there’s a whole industry whose approach is to present the struggle with the existence of God from a cynical perspective. For example XTC’s song back in the 90’s brings up the question and comes to the conclusion that how can anyone believe in God if bad things happen – you take an approach that is at times, something that makes faith feel like a wrestling match.  There’s kind of what you believe and there’s all this other stuff that goes along with it.  So do you ever feel like when you’re writing that and the music is an expression of that and you’re just trying to express that struggle?

Gary: Yeah, and I don’t think it’s conscious.  I think it reminds me of mother Theresa and that little quote of her having doubt and then people jumping on it…the atheist jumping on it and saying, “See?  Even Mother Theresa had doubt!”  But it’s like wait a minute she’s a human being.  She’s fragile.  She sees the calamity in the world.  But that doesn’t mean she lost her faith.  As far as in my songs…I know where I’m at as I grow older.  You dig in a little bit more.  You always want to challenge yourself.  As far as me approaching those subjects in songs, I like to walk the tightrope and almost make the listener question where the hell is he coming from?  Because then it’s almost an easier way for them to be applying it to themselves.  I hope that answers your question.

C6M: It does.  Which leads me into the next question, do you still ask the tough questions like, “Who Cares?” or “Am I Ever Going Change?”

Gary: (laughs) Uh, when I sing them live, I fall into that.  You want to fall into that moment of when you wrote it and where you were at in your head.  But no.  Some of those questions I have resolved.  It’s funny that you mentioned a lot people’s objection to faith in God or belief in God is what about all the calamity and what about all the evil in the world?  And it’s so funny, but they don’t even know it, but they conceded the point by the admission of evil.  I don’t want to get philosophical here, but for someone to concede that there’s evil in the world, then they must by definition concede that there’s good in the world.  And there must be that dividing line between good and evil.  What is that dividing line? Now I would ask that person if you don’t believe in God is there evil?  Well there’s no such thing as evil.  Meaning that we live in an amoral world and there’s no final arbitrator.  And that evil is subjective and one man’s good is another man’s evil…and I probably just went on a tangent didn’t I?

C6M: No, No.  It does speak to what can happen. And I think ultimately sometimes when people present the doubt, I think that sometimes that’s the part where you go well, that doubt actually points to the reason why there’s one answer or another answer.

Gary: Yeah!

C6M: And ultimately there’s no man that does not struggle with the big picture.  And they don’t realize that there’s a bigger picture and we’re just small pieces to a puzzle.  No matter how big of a puzzle piece we are it doesn’t make sense unless we put it into the bigger picture itself.

Gary: Absolutely you just raised a great point.  You just enlightened me when you mentioned doubt. Doubt is so vital to truth.  The mere fact of doubting as you are searching for the truth.  So okay you doubt that.  Well you’re searching for something to believe in.  And you can’t get through this world without coming to some conclusions.  I can’t, to make it very simple.  I have to trust that red light means red…so that person’s going to stop so I can go. I have to have faith in that.  I can’t doubt that this person is color blind. We do live by some certainties.  Doubt it great.  If you look at all the great theologians, philosophers and teachers.  They looked at the world and doubted what was thought to be true at the time.  No the world isn’t flat, no the universe isn’t going around the earth.

C6M: Sex and Sexuality are hot topics that you’ve tackled in your music, it was a really huge theme in Pornograffiti. To put this in perspective, Pornograffiti came out during a time when people were just being introduced to deadly STD’s, Magic Johnson announced that he was HIV positive, and it really wasn’t long after that Freddie Mercury passed away from AIDS.  Did you think that that album was timely when it was released, sort of a commentary on the times?

Gary: Wow, I’ve never had this question.  Maybe we were fortunate enough.  Or maybe we were in tune with the times.  Those things all unfolded at that time.  In short Pornograffiti was a morality play and about lines being crossed and innocence lost and how the world could swallow someone up and someone could keep their soul throughout it.

C6M: I thought that the brilliant thing about it was just that it did point out those things and the excess and all of that. But I sometimes wonder what kind of an album you would have written if you wrote Pornograffiti in 2010 because sex is actually even bigger and now it’s even fashionable to be a porn star.

Gary: Oh yeah absolutely.  It’s porno times 10.  Well maybe you just inspired the next record.

C6M: Yeah maybe.  I heard the new stuff and I’m really looking forward to the DVD.  And I just wanted to thank you so much for taking the call and I wish you luck on the rest of your day (of interviews).

Gary: Thank you.  I enjoyed the conversation.

I have to say that I did too.  Thanks Gary for taking the time to talk about some of the deeper issues of life.  He really did give us his best. If you haven’t picked up Saudades de Rock yet, please do.  It’s signature Extreme.  Look for the DVD, Take Us Alive, coming out on April 23.  And don’t forget to visit the website at www.extreme-band.com, and let them know that Paul sent ya.

By Paul Stamat